Curse

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Personette

I think Rakeman makes a *great* point. Although, the one thing you can say in defense of the Xunlai goody box is that really powerful weapons don't do low leveled characters much good.

Well, that's not a very good defense (I know that you agree with my point of course, but I am gonna just get this out of the way before somebody begins trying to rebuke me with that defense). A rune of superior Vigor would do low leveled characters good. Weapon mods can be applied to weapons of any requirement.

Heck, in Nightfall, you can get a ferry to Consulate Docks and get maximum armor at level 4 or so. No way you could do that with the cash you earned leveling to 4

Not to mention getting a run to LA and then to Droks, then going back- sure, it would cost quite a few platinum, but many people do it- just go into a runner group at a high level area and see how many low levels are in the group. Once again, the cash of your other characters helps your low levels. I could go on and on, but I think I made myself clear on this one :ninja

And, of course, once could argue that skills with low attributes wont do the low leveled characters much good, especially since heroes can use those skills and as we know, heroes using UAX is hardly a pressing issue.

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by HzzB

You are crazy! How much gold do you need to unlock skills for all professions for every your character? Think before post plz...

I wish everybody who completely opposes this change would do so

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakeman

A character wont be equal to one that's a year old. Less attribute points, less armor, less weapons. And it's not like Johnny Noob buys the game, makes a character, and BAM, he's equal to YOUR year old character. He wont have the skills or anything yet. Your argument is FULL of ignorance... you say that the game wont be fun when you stomp around with all skills... um, hello? Do you even PLAY Guild Wars? I guess I didn't get the memo that anet is allowing us to equip all of our skills in explorable areas. Wait? There was no memo? We can still have 8 at a time?

What is the difference between somebody who is running a minion master build who ONLY has those 8 skills unlocked and somebody who is running a minion master build who has ALL the skills unlocked? None! If it's the same build, you have NO advantage! Seriously, what were you thinking when you made that post?

No reward? The reward is having fun! The fact is, he EARNED his reward and now he is having fun USING the reward! Your character can still grow, with new armor, weapons, and everything like that! It seems that you have NO grasp of Guild Wars gameplay mechanics at all. I don't mean to be harsh, but it's true. I mean, sheesh, you consider a character fully formed because he has all skills unlocked? You must not be very good at this game, I suggest you consider playing it more before trying to act as if you have knowledge on this issue.

The topic creator did NOT make a suggestion. This is a discussion. Discussion=Riverside.

So this isn't a suggestion for a change to the game, just cause its phrased differently? Okay.

Funny, despite all that you didn't answer my question about why if this is ever implemented that you won't find posts saying "I want to be able to use all unlocked runes/insignia's/mods". Which pretty much would kill that growth with new weapons/armours etc wouldn't it? And grasp of GW mechanics? Sure I'm no expert, but I think that having more skills is kinda more important than different skins? Whats the difference between sunspear and istani armour? Armour is armour, a gladius is the same as a fellblade. Are you trying to say that what you look like defines your character more than the skills he has?

And fun? Sure. But how many times and different ways can you stomp the same AI mob and have it stay fun? You'd be partying, but how long will the party last? Pve is easy enough as is with your old characters. How long will pve last after all your characters are like that? What's left then? Farming, but you're this isn't for that right?

Bo Azum · Apr 04, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Gaining skills in pve is getting to know the skills. You start out with a bunch, learn them and use them, buy more if needed.

Yes, I'd hate to go through the game again from scratch with my Ritualist or Ranger, but hey, I already got one. And all have their primary unlocked. So if I see a skill from secondary that can be useful to them, I buy it.

Going trough the game with another profession, is what keeps the game nice, imo. Buy and learn new skills, use them. Start out with a new ele (ie), learn new skills on that character. Then to find out "Hey, this might work on my Rit!" and then go buy that on the Rit, and try it out. 1k for a new skill ain't that big of a deal then...

No need for skill grinding, no need for skill unlock.

NOTE: I don't see the need to unlock ALL skills for ALL profession on just 1 character. I strive to get all primary, but said above, use/try only the secondary skills that seem useful. Primary is about a 140 skills. Playing the game that's less than 140k. Not much.

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by nytestalker

I really was gonna stop posting for a bit and see if anyone else wanted to share an opinion but I have to address 2 really big fundamental flaws you seem to have.

1 - Anet claimed that a day 1 character WOULD be just as viable as a 1 year character.. Its that whole skill over time argument....

2 - Casual players - I am one. Hi. I get roughly an hour-ish to play guild wars at the end of my day. Typically this is reduced as I procrastinate about my household chores till the end of the day...

I've played casually for two years.

Guess what.

If tomorrow I woke up and had every single skill on every single character... I would still play... :/

I don't play to acquire things... I find something I wanna "work towards" and go do that.

For instance, my last "work towards" was primeval armor for my necro.

I just finished that though.. And am looking for my next "work towards" (which incidentally is probably going to be getting my necro to the end of chapter 2..)

If there ever came a time that my next "work towards" was skill acquisition. I can safely say I would quit Guild Wars all together and go back to playing First Person Shooters...

Haha man right on! I work to learn all the primary skills and that isn't too hard... but learning all the skills of every profession??? Counterstrike plx!!!

lyra_song · Apr 04, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by nytestalker

You could argue that you didnt NEED every single skill and you would of course be right. But even needing 500 skills per character, your still talking about....

5,000 gold and skill points. per character.

50,000 gold and skill points for your whole account. (assuming 10 char slots, i like round numbers, i know most ppl have either 8 or 9 slots so the totals will of course be slightly less this is again just an example)

I have argued that already.
You can make a significant amount of money before you reach lvl 20.
Just play the game normally. Do missions, do quests, etc.

my pov is....anything that develops outside of the main storyline, any of the titles, 15k armors, etc, are all grind-based.

If you choose to gain a LOT of skills, this falls outside of the main storyline. This is your choice to gain a lot of skills.

You don't need a lot of skills to be effective. In fact...some might argue that theres only so many skills that are actually useful.

------------

So um...ya...whats the point? .-.

I could argue that its a grind to collect skills the first time.
And some would agree with that

Anet could remove that "grind".

But....what happens to the game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra

Games have set RULES. Rules are part of the game and they structure the gameplay so it is an actual game, not just goofing around with a ball without any purpose.

1. You cant go offsides
2. You can only have 5 players on the ice
3. You cant step over this line
4. You can only move 1 space at a time
5. You can only have one of each number in a row
6. No clinching, no headbutting, no biting, no punching below the waist
7. The game ends at checkmate
8. Killing the ghostly hero gives you a morale boost

Name me one game (sports, board game, video games) that has no set rules?

Your idea is in violation of a very basic rule of character progression in RPGs.

The less and less rules you have, the less of a game it becomes.

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Oh yeah, GW has about 1100 skills over all ten professions. Not 1000 per prof...

ensoriki · Apr 04, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Some of you are being rather silly, trying to make your thoughts and opinions seem far more logical than others.
No a level 3 ele with skills is not that strong, I got meteor shower on my damn ele in Ascalon and I couldnt use it well.
Why? Energy cost.

The skills really dont mean much if you dont have the attributes to utilize them well. Rather then complain about the IMBA created through this, you can ALREADy get skills you've unlocked but you have to pay a fine.

However the fine goes to 1 platinum after, buying all skills for your profession and its secondary is damn costly (other than its primary attribute). Oh this is no big deal to farmers, but I don't enjoy farming some people just like to play with the economy.

Honestly letting you salvage weapons you make from pvp is far more Imbalanced than this -_-.

If I spent Tons of gold unlocking all skills for my pve assassin....then I decide okay you've had a good run lets try it with Dervish and Ele to keep it fresh....well I just want to finish pve so I can enjoy those 2 and move onto pvp. Why not just make a pvp char? Pve is fun its own right.

Letting players get skills they've already unlocked is fine ASLONG as it does not include elite skills. As I mentioned before a end game discount item is a way to do this. Newbies can't just unlock things and those that have already beaten the game...well why are you having them go through the exact same thing all over again, why cant they enjoy it differently this time (as long as you aint hacking bubs).

cellardweller · Apr 04, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I made 10k with my Assassin by Kaineng Center. I basically got all my money in newbie-land. I just did quests. I would argue that getting the skill points is harder than getting the money.

Which would have been imediately required for armour and runes, which cost in the vacinity 15k at Factions release if memory serves.

Quote:

Besides...from my perspective, the game gives you enough to have fun.

And because you are content playing with a minute selection of skills everyone else should be denied playing with a reasonable amount?

Quote:

If you really want to experiment with builds and skills, you'd really have to invest your money on the character. And i dont think anyone playing normally cares about that.

Clearly this assertion is incorrect, I would hold myself and the many other people in this thread as counterexamples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Is it that you don't have enough skill points? I think that with mission and quest rewards a casual player has more than enough skill points to play with. Do you agree or disagree? And why?

As shown on my previous page, it takes 3100 skill points to aquire a reasonable amount of skills to start playing with builds. This requires at least 6 million XP on each character. I don't know about you, but after 3500 hours only 2 of my 10 of my characters have anywhere near that amount xp

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Is it that it costs too much plat? If you actually just play through normally, a casual player with 7 henchies/4 heroes+4 henchies can easily make 3 plat an hour. Not farming. Just travelling on foot between zones, or playing through the campaign. I think that being able to get 3 skills an hour is reasonable for casual play. Do you agree or disagree? And why?

3 plat/hr is a terrible exaggeration, it far closer to 1 plat/hr in my experience but I'll compromise at 2. In order to get a reaonable amount of skills it would over 1500 hours of play time, so you can't coun't grouping time, chatting time, time you spent getting coffee etc. I spend at least an hour or two playing every night since release and I still don't think I've racked up that much actual playtime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Is it because you can't get it at the first skill trainer you run into right after creating your character? Well, I don't think you should be able to, but you can right now under the current system. He's called priest of Balthazar. Unlocks skills so they are available at all trainers so you don't have to get to ember light camp. I don't think this is an issue. Do you agree or disagree? And why?

This one doesn't bother me personally, but I don't see the need to restrict people that it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I also ask that if this is ever implemented, what's to say that within the week there won't be a post saying "I've unlocked all the armour insignias and runes, and I want to experiment with different builds requiring different armour setups. I should have all insignias and runes unlocked without having to buy/find them for my new character". How would this argument be any less legitimate then what's being asked here? And how would this not hurt pve in the long run?

There are threads alread in the sanitarium for this topic and people aguing for and against it. I suggest you take any objections there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

So I'm asking the pro camp, why are my points wrong? Enlighten me. Persuade me that this is a well thought out idea and that you have considered long term consequences for pve. Just because something is good for an individual doesn't mean its good for the community. Tell me why this is good for the game in the long term. Actually discuss why this needs to be done, rather then just saying its too much effort to put into the game. Do that, and I won't just think this is a 'I want something for nothing' combined with a 'But I want it now' idea. Go on, turn me to the darkside.

You see the game as progressing through the story line building your character and aquiring stuff. Others see the game as developing builds and adventuring with them. When you realise that other's methods of playing and gaining enjoyment are equally valid to your own, I'm sure you will come around. With the current system, such a player must grind for thousands of hours before they can even begin to enjoy themselves - I've been through it myself and I don't think others should have to.

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

I also notice that while everyone says a lvl3 is not as effective as a lvl20, which is obvious, no one has said anything about how that lvl3 can become a lvl20 within a day. Why don't we just ask that all pve characters start at lvl20 then? Maybe cause that is bad for long term pve?

And as for energy cost? That has nothing to do with level, but with armour, weaps and runes. And GoLE doesn't really need points at all. And you also get that free I might add.

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

So this isn't a suggestion for a change to the game, just cause its phrased differently? Okay.

Funny, despite all that you didn't answer my question about why if this is ever implemented that you won't find posts saying "I want to be able to use all unlocked runes/insignia's/mods. Which pretty much would kill that growth with new weapons/armours etc wouldn't it? And grasp of GW mechanics? Sure I'm no expert, but I think that having more skills is kinda more important than different skins? Whats the difference between sunspear and istani armour? Armour is armour, a gladius is the same as a fellblade. Are you trying to say that what you look like defines your character more than the skills he has?

And fun? Sure. But how many times and different ways can you stomp the same AI mob and have it stay fun? You'd be partying, but how long will the party last? Pve is easy enough as is with your old characters. How long will pve last after all your characters are like that? What's left then? Farming, but you're this isn't for that right?

About the phrasing part: Yup.

Once again... stomping the mob? You do not understand this game. Having unlocked skills gives me NO statistical advantage... you are acting as if someone with all unlocked skills usable would be Godlike... he wouldn't. And from what you say about AI mobs... it seems that you don't find this game fun and just play to increase your e-peen.

Skills don't define your character. You can have 8 at a time. Get it through your head.

Now, for the coup de grace:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Funny, despite all that you didn't answer my question about why if this is ever implemented that you won't find posts saying "I want to be able to use all unlocked runes/insignia's/mods.

You are comparing 2 completely different things.

Skills: Getting all the skills usable by your character would cost roughly 1,000 platinum. An amount no casual gamer will ever possess.

All that other stuff can easily be obtained by any casual gamer. You are comparing a... say, 50 platinum requirement to a 1,000 platinum requirement. Going through one campaign should yield you at LEAST 50k, especially in Nightfall.

That's where the difference comes in. All the other stuff you mentioned can be obtained by a casual player. The skills can't. And this limits your options in gameplay. See, skills give you more gameplay options- experimenting with new builds, learning how to run new builds, that's a huge part of the fun. Not being limited by what your character knows, but what YOU know, and your skill in the game.

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I also notice that while everyone says a lvl3 is not as effective as a lvl20, which is obvious, no one has said anything about how that lvl3 can become a lvl20 within a day. Why don't we just ask that all pve characters start at lvl20 then? Maybe cause that is bad for long term pve?

-If characters become level 20 so quickly, what's the big deal of giving them unlocks? Your argument is that giving these skills make a low level character too powerful- then you turn around saying you are only a low level character for one day anyway. See the contradiction?

And your level 20 thing is completely off topic so I don't feel it is necessary to respond. It seems you are trying to go off on a tangent to gain ground in the debate, it's not working. Besides, as you say- in one day, you can reach level 20. Looks like all pve characters basically start out as 20 anyway.

The Ernada · Apr 04, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Funny, despite all that you didn't answer my question about why if this is ever implemented that you won't find posts saying "I want to be able to use all unlocked runes/insignia's/mods"

Because it's a hypothetical question with no basis in what we are arguing. NO ONE has mentioned those things. Basically, you're doing that strawman tactic that you cant seem to get away from.

It's like me arguing that the concept of skill points should be taken out because there will be people saying "I want skill points to cost even more XP to gain as part of character development" Stick to what is ACTUALLY being said instead of making up hypothetical problems and putting words into people's mouths.

ensoriki · Apr 04, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I also notice that while everyone says a lvl3 is not as effective as a lvl20, which is obvious, no one has said anything about how that lvl3 can become a lvl20 within a day. Why don't we just ask that all pve characters start at lvl20 then? Maybe cause that is bad for long term pve?

And as for energy cost? That has nothing to do with level, but with armour, weaps and runes. And GoLE doesn't really need points at all. And you also get that free I might add.

You seem to be missing something -_-

For an Ele Why do you put energy storage? For energy correct, well you can't get a decent amount of energy and attack power at a low level. So adding skills wont matter correct? Though you have to pay ALOT to get armour then lets tack on skills. around the first 10 skills cost less then 1 platinum. Core classes have about 140-200 skills somehwere in that area I dont feel like looking it up right now, so thats 140-200k - the 10 cheaper skills which will still ad up to about 3/6k For a new player thats alot.

Now, you all say that money isn't alot I've had GW for a year and you see I have no intention of farming, tried it hated it, fell asleep. Doing all the quests....I rather do that AFTER finishing the main story and then just finishing my little errands of helping villagers after. So how much money do I develop from the main story, not enough to test builds.
____(sections to people who don't approve)

NOT EVERYONE wants to use cookie cutter builds, There are tons of skill combinations if people have to buy the cookie cutting skills off the bat or find that their in a financial depletion later, well you don't care right? You only want cookie cutters because people using originality on a game they purchased is damn upsetting right? When you start your first character you may try out different secondarys blah blah blah, now you want skills to go with that....if you tried to get all NON primary skills for each of your secondarys assuming you have all secondarys your basically using up a lot of damn money. Now if you want something like obsidian armour with the growing rate of Ecto's.....well you have to farm.

When people start a new character its so they can enjoy pve again or go to pvp after a little world saving

maybe just so they can go to tihark orchard and hang out. A-net probably realizes not everyones a farmer so why put such massive gold sinks. If I beat the game, put my hours in Why should I do it all over again The same exact way with a different class. I can atleast adventure with different builds without paying through the nose.

Rakeman · Apr 04, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Because it's a hypothetical question with no basis in what we are arguing. NO ONE has mentioned those things. Basically, you're doing that strawman tactic that you cant seem to get away from.

It's like me arguing that the concept of skill points should be taken out because there will be people saying "I want skill points to cost even more XP to gain as part of character development" Stick to what is ACTUALLY being said instead of making up hypothetical problems and putting words into people's mouths.

Thanks for answering that better than I did man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Oh yeah, GW has about 1100 skills over all ten professions. Not 1000 per prof...

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Secondary_profession

The Ernada · Apr 04, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Name me one game (sports, board game, video games) that has no set rules?

Besides a handful of exceptions, all games and sports will change some rules. Hardly anything is always the same with the same rules. You CAN change some rules and still have the basic premise of the game intact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Your idea is in violation of a very basic rule of character progression in RPGs.

See this statement irks me. Where is this "Rule" of RPG anyway? Who dictates this? Is there a bible of RPG that we must follow? Seriously, I'd like to know.

And even if we do stick to that "basic rule of character progression" who says what kind of progression is dictated? There's definately level progression in GW. And story progression. And there's titles.

Seriously, I heard the same thing back when I fought for attribute refund points to be removed. The same "RPG progression" arguments were thrown out as well. "OMG U shudnt be able 2 change attribute lines instantly! It's not realistic and RPG-like!!!!!! "

lyra_song · Apr 04, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Which would have been imediately required for armour and runes, which cost in the vacinity 15k at Factions release if memory serves.

I actually havent bought any runes for my assassin. All my runes i get from playing normally as drops. Im using my pre-order daggers and Im using a build from Newbie Land. I keep trying new builds...but i just cant find one thats as good as my simple build from newbieland. I'm sure theres better ones out there, but my build works really well for me, and i substitute some moves in for specific areas, but thats about it.

Quote:

And because you are content playing with a minute selection of skills everyone else should be denied playing with a reasonable amount?

It is your choice to buy more skills outside of the ones they give you by default. As Ernada said some of the "bread and butter" skills are given to you. You have enough skills to be functional.

Anet has already made a compromise with its players by giving them access to unlocked skills by buying it in the first place.

"Give them an inch, they'll take a mile"

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Clearly this assertion is incorrect, I would hold myself and the many other people in this thread as counterexamples.

I guess the arguement is then "what is normal gameplay" ?

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You see the game as progressing through the story line building your character and aquiring stuff. Others see the game as developing builds and adventuring with them. When you realise that other's methods of playing and gaining enjoyment are equally valid to your own, I'm sure you will come around. With the current system, such a player must grind for thousands of hours before they can even begin to enjoy themselves - I've been through it myself and I don't think others should have to.

The game is designed to be played a certain way.

You can choose to play outside of this original design. This is up to you.

But how you choose to play the game doesnt change the fact that the game is still designed to be played a certain way.

The natural progression of Prophecies involves Ascalon -> Shiverpeaks -> Kryta -> Maguuma ->Desert-> Shiverpeaks -> Fire Isle

Factions and Nightfall are even more strict, since they lockout the content with gates.

You can take many shortcuts and progress faster through the game. But this would usually involve outside help from another character, runners, ferries, guildmates, or another character to farm the money to fund your armor, etc.

Such shortcuts are outside of the natural progression of the game.

As such, I do not feel that Anet should contribute to letting players play outside of of this natural progression, since it contradicts the design so explictly.

Giving access to all unlocked skills for newly made characters feels too much outside of this natural progression.

If a player wants to play outside the natural flow of the game, that is their choice.

But they have to pay in: Time, effort, and gold.

TabascoSauce · Apr 04, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

And fun? Sure. But how many times and different ways can you stomp the same AI mob and have it stay fun? You'd be partying, but how long will the party last? Pve is easy enough as is with your old characters. How long will pve last after all your characters are like that? What's left then? Farming, but you're this isn't for that right?

Your paragraph is entirely predicated on people playing through the game once and only once per character.

I have guildies and friends, so I cannot count the number of times I have voluntarily helped people through THK.

PvE has made it for close to 2 years for me, as well as most folks on this forum.

We are not discussing the end of PvE. We have a sandbox, and players will play in it as long as it is fun. (helping others, farming, yakking, etc)

What would be a better question is the net result to players in the game. Will making these changes to make the game easier to play through again and again by re-acquiring skills unlocked by other characters you have played have a net positive or negative on the player base?

I think that we who argue for this believe that it will bring players back who see a huge workload to try and catch up on the game. I have friends who have ceased playing the game because they did not get every class through Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. They see a HUGE workload ahead of them to get those skills they see me using to beat Varesh silly.

What, they are supposed to buy the PvP packs? Whoops, no help there.

Oh, they are supposed to start characters and play through all three campaigns? Uh, no, they are going to play another specific MMO that is coming out about now because it is more approachable.

Lets do ANet's math, shall we? Cold cash.

Is the number of players who will NOT buy GW:EN greater than the number of players who will buy GW:EN based on and because of this change?

You do the math.

Thx!
TabascoSauce

kazjun · Apr 04, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

So rather than making a new character and taking it through, getting all the primary skills and the main secondary skills, which nowhere gets near 1000k (which would be EVERY skill in 3 GW chapters including duplicates), you have to unlock ALL 1000 skills on ALL your characters. Well, I'm sorry then, you're not lazy, just greedy. If you want it, good for you, but I don't think it should just be handed to you. Oh, and BTW, you're already godlike without needing even half of all skills unlocked on any character. Well, except for maybe mesmers who take a bit longer in pve.

And I'm not saying that it overpowers all low lvl characters. I'm saying that it overpowers all characters. Maybe it's you who hasn't played in a while, but take a character with even a moderate amount of unlocks, grab your party and go play pve for a awhile. Then come back and tell me you didn't steamroll everything in pve. Short of the elite farming areas, can you tell me a single place in pve where its so hard that having even half unlocks doesn't make you godlike?

Oh, and does this mean that you would support "I want all mods/runes/etc that I unlock to be available to all my character's"? Just asking cause you don't actually answer that bit. This isn't theoretical. Look beyond this topic. Cause can you honestly tell me that if they change this for skills, that you won't have people demanding this for everything else?

And yes, thanks for that link about secondaries. Whats your point? Here's one for you:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Skills

Total skills (not each profession) in the game are 1134 with 290 duplicates. Are you saying you NEED all 1000 for each and every one of your characters?

The Ernada · Apr 04, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Well, I'm sorry then, you're not lazy, just greedy.

Well there we have it. First we were lazy. And now we're greedy. And you wonder why I don't even bother replying to your other "points?"